Destiny (Steven Bonnell) / Ukraine War / 2023-09-20

Position

“If we let Putin take Ukraine, every dictator on the planet gets the message that conquest works. This isn't just about Ukraine - it's about whether the rules-based international order means anything. You either defend sovereignty or you don't.”

This is a synthesized characterization of this commentator's publicly known stance, not a direct quote from a specific source.

Position from 2023-09-20

ukraine-sovereigntyMed

Ukraine has the sovereign right to choose its own alliances including NATO membership

Their wording: “Ukraine's territorial sovereignty must be defended as a matter of principle”

Destiny holds this from liberal internationalist principles - sovereign states have the right to self-determination and territorial integrity. NOTE: Does NOT reuse alliance-mutual-obligation from his Iran position; uses a different premise framework for Ukraine (sovereignty/rules-based order vs alliance obligation/preemptive defense)

Also held by (16)
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez — AOC holds this as a straightforward application of self-determination, consistent with her broader anti-imperialist framework that opposes powerful nations dictating terms to smaller onesJoe Biden — Biden treats Ukrainian sovereignty as both a legal principle and a practical test case. His framing is rooted in the post-1945 international order in which sovereignty norms are foundational, and he views Russia's invasion as the most direct challenge to those norms since the end of the Cold War.Stephen Colbert — Colbert frames Ukraine's sovereignty through the lens of democracy versus authoritarianism - this isn't just about borders, it's about the global contest between democratic and autocratic governance modelsLindsey Graham — Graham's commitment to sovereignty in Ukraine contrasts with his willingness to violate Iranian sovereignty through strikes - the sovereignty principle is applied selectively based on who the adversary isNikki Haley — Haley frames Ukraine's sovereignty not just as intrinsically valuable but as instrumentally critical for deterring China on Taiwan - the sovereignty principle serves a broader credibility argument about American global leadershipAna Kasparian — Kasparian includes the sovereignty acknowledgment as a defensive move against being labeled pro-Russian, but it carries minimal weight in her actual analysis. It serves as a rhetorical shield rather than a driving premiseJimmy Kimmel — Kimmel's support is rooted in straightforward moral sympathy - innocent people are being killed by an aggressor, and helping them is the obviously right thing to do. This is not a geopolitical analysis but a humanitarian and emotional appealKonstantin Kisin — Kisin genuinely holds Ukrainian sovereignty as a value - he is not dismissing Ukraine's right to exist or fight. He subordinates this premise to pragmatism: sovereignty is worth defending but not at the cost of indefinite Ukrainian deaths with no path to victory.Piers Morgan — Morgan holds Ukrainian sovereignty as a straightforward principle - a democratically elected government was attacked by a larger neighbor, and the legal and moral case is clear.John Oliver — Oliver's position starts from the moral clarity of unprovoked aggression against a sovereign state - this is the baseline from which all his arguments follow, and the thing he finds most frustrating that people try to complicateJordan Peterson — Peterson frames Ukrainian sovereignty through his individual-liberty lens - a nation's right to choose its alignment is the collective equivalent of the individual's right to self-determination, and violating it is tyrannyMarco Rubio — Rubio has consistently acknowledged the legitimacy of Ukraine's cause, but his emphasis has shifted over time from principled support to pragmatic conditionality as the war dragged on and Trump's negotiation-focused approach gained political ascendancyBernie Sanders — Sanders accepts the sovereignty argument for Ukraine, which drove his vote for aid - this is a straightforward application of international law principles consistent with his democratic socialist internationalismRichard Spencer — Spencer holds Ukrainian sovereignty not primarily as an abstract legal right but as a civilizational imperative - a Russian victory would redraw the map of Europe by force and destroy the Western order.Jon Stewart — Stewart accepts Ukraine's sovereignty as the uncontroversial baseline - unlike anti-war commentators who complicate the sovereignty question, he treats it as obvious and moves past it to focus on the implementation of supportCenk Uygur — Uygur accepts the sovereignty argument as baseline - his progressive internationalism recognizes the violation of international norms. But he treats this as a starting point rather than a conversation-ender, using it to establish credibility before pivoting to his actual concerns about the policy response
Incompatible with (5)
“NATO expansion provoked Russia's invasion of Ukraine”Med

held by Aaron Bastani, Brian Berletic, Noam Chomsky, Jimmy Dore, Jackson Hinkle, John Mearsheimer, Alexander Mercouris, Neema Parvini, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Scott Ritter

“The Ukraine conflict is a US proxy war against Russia using Ukrainian lives”Low

held by Brian Berletic, Jimmy Dore, Tulsi Gabbard, Glenn Greenwald, Jackson Hinkle, Alexander Mercouris, Neema Parvini, Hasan Piker, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Scott Ritter

“US control of Greenland is a strategic necessity for Arctic security and rare earth mineral access”Low

held by Marco Rubio, Donald Trump

“NATO is an obsolete Cold War alliance that no longer serves American interests”Low

held by Tucker Carlson, John Mearsheimer, Donald Trump

“Great powers have the right to expand territory when strategic interests demand it”Low

held by John Mearsheimer, Marco Rubio, Ben Shapiro, Donald Trump

rules-based-orderMed

Defending territorial integrity against aggression is essential to maintaining the rules-based international order

Their wording: “The rules-based international order depends on enforcing the norm against territorial conquest”

Destiny holds this from liberal internationalist principles - if the norm against conquest collapses, the entire post-WWII order unravels

Also held by (14)
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez — AOC accepts the precedent-setting argument - while she is critical of US foreign policy elsewhere, she recognizes that allowing territorial conquest by force undermines the international norms that protect smaller nationsAaron Bastani — Bastani critiques the rules-based order not by rejecting it but by arguing it is selectively applied - sovereignty is sacred when violated by US adversaries but negotiable when the US itself is the aggressorJoe Biden — Biden's career spans the Cold War, the post-Cold War liberal order, and its current erosion. He views the rules-based order not as an abstraction but as the practical framework that prevented great-power war for decades, and treats Ukraine as a defining test of whether that framework survives.Stephen Colbert — Colbert elevates the rules-based order into a civilizational frame - the stakes aren't just Ukraine but the viability of democracy as a governing model worldwideLindsey Graham — Graham uses DIFFERENT premises for Ukraine than for Iran. For Iran: nuclear threat, diplomacy failed, military-only-option. For Ukraine: rules-based order, sovereignty. This represents a consistency tension - the hawkish interventionism is constant but the justificatory framework shifts between conflictsNikki Haley — Haley uses DIFFERENT premise framework for Ukraine than for Iran. For Iran: nuclear-threat, proxy-threat, alliance-mutual-obligation. For Ukraine: rules-based-order, sovereignty. Same hawkish conclusion (maximum US engagement), different justification. Like Graham, this reveals that the interventionism is the constant and the premises shift to fit the conflictJimmy Kimmel — Kimmel frames the rules-based order in simple moral terms rather than strategic ones - America is supposed to stand up to bullies, and failing to do so is a betrayal of what the country claims to representPiers Morgan — Morgan frames the defense of Ukraine as a defense of the democratic order itself - attacks on Zelensky's legitimacy are attacks on the principle that democracies have the right to choose their own path.John Oliver — Oliver frames the rules-based order not as an abstract principle but as a practical warning - if this is allowed to stand, it sets a precedent that territorial conquest works, and everyone should be terrified of thatJordan Peterson — Peterson treats the rules-based order as the geopolitical equivalent of the social contract that enables individual flourishing - without it, might makes right, and the archetype of the tyrant prevailsMarco Rubio — Rubio uses the rules-based order argument instrumentally, particularly linking Ukraine to Taiwan deterrence - but with decreasing conviction as his alignment with Trump's negotiation posture has deepenedBernie Sanders — Sanders uses rules-based-order for Ukraine but NOT for Iran (where he used diplomacy-has-precedent, war-unwinnable, iran-nuclear-threat). This is an interesting inconsistency in framework - same commentator, different premise sets for different conflicts. However, rules-based-order and diplomacy-has-precedent are not incompatible, just different emphasis: for Ukraine the violation is clear-cut territorial aggression; for Iran the situation was more ambiguous and diplomacy had a proven track record to point toRichard Spencer — Spencer is unusual among figures associated with the dissident right: he explicitly supports NATO and the American-led Western order, viewing them as civilizational infrastructure rather than globalist overreach.Jon Stewart — Stewart accepts the rules-based order argument but refuses to let it function as a shield against scrutiny. The principle is valid but it doesn't exempt the policy from oversight
Incompatible with (7)
“The Ukraine conflict is a US proxy war against Russia using Ukrainian lives”Low

held by Brian Berletic, Jimmy Dore, Tulsi Gabbard, Glenn Greenwald, Jackson Hinkle, Alexander Mercouris, Neema Parvini, Hasan Piker, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Scott Ritter

“Domestic priorities should take precedence over foreign military commitments and financial aid”Med

held by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Tucker Carlson, Jimmy Dore, Nick Fuentes, Ana Kasparian, Candace Owens, Hasan Piker, Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad), Ben Shapiro, Donald Trump, Cenk Uygur, JD Vance, Matt Walsh

“US vital national interests are not directly threatened by foreign military conflicts that do not pose a direct threat to American territory or core economic infrastructure”Med

held by Tucker Carlson, Jimmy Dore, Nick Fuentes, Tulsi Gabbard, Ana Kasparian, Douglas Macgregor, John Mearsheimer, Elon Musk, Trita Parsi, Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad), Richard Spencer, Donald Trump, Cenk Uygur, JD Vance, Matt Walsh

“US control of Greenland is a strategic necessity for Arctic security and rare earth mineral access”Low

held by Marco Rubio, Donald Trump

“International relations are governed by power dynamics between great powers, not by international law or institutional frameworks”Med

held by John Mearsheimer, Neema Parvini, Jordan Peterson, Matt Walsh

“NATO is an obsolete Cold War alliance that no longer serves American interests”Low

held by Tucker Carlson, John Mearsheimer, Donald Trump

“Great powers have the right to expand territory when strategic interests demand it”Low

held by John Mearsheimer, Marco Rubio, Ben Shapiro, Donald Trump